4th Edition Rulings and Clarifications - Page 3
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Thread: 4th Edition Rulings and Clarifications

  1. #21


    I'm not sure what you mean Mike. You only provoke when you leave a threatened square, not when you enter one. Can you elaborate?

    Something I just realized though is that you can use your Move Action to shift away from one opponent and your Standard action to Charge a different one. I can see Nadaar doing this repeatedly. Oh the humanity!

  2. #22


    Quote Originally Posted by Shootin Bricks View Post
    One more thing that hasn't been an issue yet but is sure to be soon is Daily Powers from items. You can only use one per extended rest BUT each milestone gives you another use of a different item.
    A note on this that I stumbled on when looking stuff up for the Monster Editor.
    DMG 165
    Artifact Use Limits
    Artifacts do not count as magic items when it comes 
    to using their daily powers. In other words, the use of 
    an artifact’s daily power does not cost you the use of a 
    magic item’s daily power and does not count toward 
    that limit.
    So Checkmate's sword doesn't count.

  3. #23


    So Checkmate's sword doesn't count
    Good catch.

    Melee Attack across corners.

    This was an in-game ruling I made early on, but I never took the time to dive into the rules to try and clarify it. Now I have, and I've come to the conclusion that my original decision was wrong.
    Final word: You can make melee attacks across corners, the target has cover (-2)

    Knowledge Skill Checks in Combat
    Another item I've been meaning to look up and clarify. I think I've been calling this a minor action, for the most part, this too is wrong.
    Monster Information is a No Action, either you know it or you don't. You make a d20 roll, add appropriate skill modifiers and the DM compares the result to the DC chart in the monster description to determine what you know. It says the DM may decide you need to be trained in the appropriate skill in order to make the chack and I think this is right, if only to keep from having to deal with 6 different skill checks every time you meet a new monster. The Skills and their areas are:
    Arcana Monster Knowledge (Fey, Shadow, Elemental)
    Dungeoneering Monster Knowledge (Aberrent)
    Nature Monster Knowledge (Natural)
    Religous Monster Knowledge (Immortal or Undead)
    We'll try and get into the habit of doing this automatically when you meet a new monster.

    Final Word on Flaming Sphere
    This is not an attempt to reignite the argument, this is settling it, putting it down in writing, no more debate, this is it. I've spent nearly a half hour on the phone with josh from WCS and this is what we hashed out:
    1- IT's a solid object that fills it's square. As such, it qualifies as an obstacle and allies and creatures cannot move through it's square and it cannot move through occupied squares. It provides cover, blocks line of sight and you cannot make a diagonal move across it's corner.
    2- You must maintain Line of Effect to sustain it. A successful sustain keeps it in effect until the end olf your next turn. You can lose LOE at any point in between and not lose the spell. BUT you must re-establish LOE before the nd of your next turn in order to sustain as a minor. If you don't,the spell goes away.
    3- You don't need Line of Sight to control it. If you can't see it, it might not be where you think it is, or doing what you think it's doing.
    4- You have to maintain the Range 10 to maintain LOE. You cannot deliberately move the spell beyond 10 squares from you, but if something happens to put you out of rangen (you get pushed, pulled, or slid), you don't automatically lose the spell, just LOE.
    5- You must have LOE to control it. If you don't have LOE, you cannot attack with it or move it.
    For the record, creatures don't block LOE unless they completely fill their square (gelatinous cube). As long as you can trace a line from you to the spell's square without crossing any solid obstacles (walls, closed doors, other Flaming Spheres) and as long as you are within the Range 10, you have LOE.

  4. #24


    Something else that we've been doing wrong:

    Fighters and combat superiority and combat challenge

    PHB 76

    Combat Challenge
    In combat, itís dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every
    time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or
    misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark
    lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target
    is marked, it takes a Ė2 penalty to attack rolls for any
    attack that doesnít include you as a target. A creature
    can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark
    supersedes a mark that was already in place.
    In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is
    adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not
    include you, you can make a melee basic attack against
    that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
    Combat Superiority
    You gain a bonus to opportunity attacks equal to your
    Wisdom modifier. An enemy struck by your oppor-
    tunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the
    attack. If it still has actions remaining, it can use them
    to resume moving.

    I bring this up because of all the instances of Nadaar preventing enemies from shifting away from him because they are marked. That's not the case at all. It's Combat Superiority that causes movement to stop so thus it would have to be an attack of opportunity to prevent the monster from running away from Nadaar, not just a shift like we were thinking.

    An enemy that was next to Nadaar could shift one square backwards (out of his threat range) and Nadaar would still get his immediate interrupt melee basic attack and even if he hit the enemy, they'd still get to continue to move.

    So, it's basically like old D&D attacks of opportunity, but it's not an attack of opportunity, it's an immediate interrupt, thus he doesn't stop the monster from making the move.

  5. #25


    ✦ Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a
    melee basic attack
    It's easy to see why we were confused by this. Let me see if I got this right.

    ✦If a creature marked by the fighter shifts, the fighter may make a basic melee attack against it.
    ✦If a creature marked by the fighter moves (walks, runs), the fighter may make an opportunity attack (basic melee attack) against it. If he hits, the creature's move is interrupted and it stays where it is.

    So if the marked enemy wanted to shift and run, he provokes a BMA. If he just runs he provokes an OA and the possibility of being stopped in his tracks. Got it.

    Again, good catch. Keep 'em coming!

    I'm confused by this though, Mike:
    An enemy that was next to Nadaar could shift one square backwards (out of his threat range)
    He could shift in any direction, including into another square threatened by Nadaar.

  6. #26


    Quote Originally Posted by Shootin Bricks View Post

    I'm confused by this though, Mike:

    He could shift in any direction, including into another square threatened by Nadaar.
    Absolutely. I was just pointing out that most likely, to retreat, he's going to shift backwards out of a position that is threatened by Nadaar so that he could use another move action to run away.

    There's now nothing stopping a monster marked by a fighter's combat challenge from shifting a square to grant or get out of being flanked, besides the fighter getting a free hit on the monster.

  7. #27


    This is an interesting tidbit:
    ✦ Death Saving Throw: When you are dying, you 
    need to make a saving throw at the end of your turn 
    each round. The result of your saving throw deter-
    mines how close you are to death.
    Lower than 10: You slip one step closer to death. If 
    you get this result three times before you take a rest, 
    you die.
    10Ė19: No change.
    20 or higher: Spend a healing surge. When you do 
    so, you are considered to have 0 hit points, and then 
    your healing surge restores hit points as normal. You 
    are no longer dying, and you are conscious but still 
    prone. If you roll 20 or higher but have no healing 
    surges left expressed as a negative number, your 
    condition doesnít change.
    So, if you're dying and 1 ally assists with your saving throw at the end of your turn. (See PHB 185 under First Aid) and you roll and 18 or better you return at bloodied. 2 allies assist and you only need a 16 or better. If everyone rushes over and assists, you merely need to roll a 10! to return at half strength. Tinkerbell syndrome.

    We are also wrong in that stabilizing doesn't return you to 1 hit point, it just stops you from making death saves.

  8. #28


    you return at bloodied.... to return at half strength.
    I'm confused by this. They start at 0 hp and spend a healing surge which puts them at quarter strength (and by that you mean HP), right?

  9. #29


    Quote Originally Posted by Shootin Bricks View Post
    I'm confused by this. They start at 0 hp and spend a healing surge which puts them at quarter strength (and by that you mean HP), right?
    Right, Quarter not Half HP.

  10. #30


    I've worked my way back and forth through the combat section trying to find stuff we've been doing wrong. I think we've found everything. I'll come back to it later and see if anything else jumps out at me. For now, I'm moving on to skills in combat, something we haven't dealt with too much yet, but I'm sure is going to become more and more relevant as time goes by. First up is Stealth, for no other reason than that the whole thing has been erratted, it's completely different now. Here it is:

    Stealth [Revision]
    Playerís Handbook, page 188
    Replace all text after the first paragraph with the following:
    Stealth: At the end of a move action.
    ✦ Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are
    present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemyís passive Perception
    check. If you move more than 2 squares during the move action, you take a Ė
    5 penalty to the Stealth check. If you run, the penalty is Ė10.
    ✦ Becoming Hidden: You can make a Stealth check against an enemy only if
    you have superior cover or total concealment against the enemy or if youíre
    outside the enemyís line of sight. Outside combat, the DM can allow you to
    make a Stealth check against a distracted enemy, even if you donít have
    superior cover or total concealment and arenít outside the enemyís line of
    sight. The distracted enemy might be focused on something in a different
    direction, allowing you to sneak up.
    ✦ Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the
    enemy (see ďConcealmentĒ and ďTargeting What You Canít See,Ē page 281).
    ✦ Failure: You can try again at the end of another move action.
    ✦ Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these
    Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment
    against an enemy, you donít remain hidden from that enemy. You donít need
    superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do
    need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You canít use
    another creature as cover to remain hidden.
    Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw
    attention to yourself, you donít remain hidden from any enemy that can hear
    Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must
    make a new Stealth check with a Ė5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is Ė10. If
    any enemyís passive Perception check beats your check result, you donít
    remain hidden from that enemy.
    Donít Attack: If you attack, you donít remain hidden.
    ✦ Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to
    remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the
    action. You canít become hidden again as part of that same action.
    ✦ Enemy Activity: An enemy can try to find you on its turn. If an enemy
    makes an active Perception check and beats your Stealth check result (donít
    make a new check), you donít remain hidden from that enemy. Also, if an
    enemy tries to enter your space, you donít remain hidden from that enemy.
    The new rules are better because it reduces it to one die roll- the opposition checks are based on Passive Perceptions, and you have to have Total Concealment or Superior Cover. This makes it much harder to abuse. The only problem I forsee is the ambiguity in the difference between the two types of Cover. I wish they had defined it better.
    Some situations I see arising:
    A prone creature on a corpse strewn battlefield. Superior enough?
    A medium or smaller creature behind a Large or bigger creature. Superior?
    A small character in the furniture situation- behind overturned tables, under beds- is this Superior? My adventure book seems to think so, but it was written before the erratta, I'm sure.
    Thoughts? Any other ideas?
    One thing I'm getting out of this is a new condition called Hidden meaning you are silent and invisible. You need Superior and Total to become Hidden but only regular cover and concealment to maintain it,
    Possible scenario:
    Let's put Kirun up against two Hobgoblin Soldier sentries. Let's say he's scouting and here's them talking up ahead. Before he gets to the corner where they are (where he would only have regular cover), he makes a Stealth (10) check against the Hobgoblins' Passive Pereptions (13), only needing to roll a 4 or better. Let's say he nails it, so he's Hidden. Now he can move up to the corner (regular cover) at no penalty. He scans the room. The Hobgoblins are are flanking a door on the opposite side of a 4 square by 4 square room. There is a torch providing light. Even without the light Hobgoblins have Low Light vision, so Concealment is out. If he attacks he gets Surprise so he could probably kill one outright and assuming he beats the others initiative, use first strike to nail the other. But lets say he really wants to get across the room and melee attack and there just happens to statues on either side of the Hobgoblins granting cover. Assuming theres no cover in between, he'll have to make another stealth check at a -5 penalty (he's moving more than 2 squares), meaning he'll have to roll 9 or better (still pretty good). Now he's right next to the Hobgoblins (well,one of them) and he's still Hidden. He can remain there indefinately as long as:
    He doesn't break cover.
    He stay's silent.
    The Hobgoblin's can actively search forn him, but they'd need a reason to.
    If there were other statues in the middle of them room, he could have used two move actions and not had to make a second stealth check.
    Am I right? Wrong?
    Last edited by Doug James; 12-12-2008 at 11:47 AM.

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